The bombing of Serbia had resulted in: (a) zero NATO casualties, (b) President Milosevic's agreeing to a NATO role in Kosovo; (c) at least six thousand Serbian dead and $50 to $120 billion in physical damage. Where do we go from here? This conversation with a man who has spent his adult life studying the Soviet Union and related matters may not yield ultimate answers, but it gives us a way to think about human rights and the First World's responsibilities. RP: "I think that we should try to establish, if it's feasible, several security zones in the world where we'll say, 'Whatever happens in this zone is the responsibility of the neighboring countries.' Say there are violations of human rights in Africa. Those countries in Africa which are concerned with human rights should intervene, but it should not be up to the United States or to Europe. We should be responsible, I think, for Europe. And we in the United States should be responsible probably for the Americas." WFB: "But the Pipes Covenant would permit, would it not?, help by Europe or America to Africans who were moving against Rwanda." RP: "Absolutely. But it would not be our principal obligation, but theirs."