A high-energy discussion even though host and guest are in substantial agreement: the energy is generated by the urgency of the problem. One sample from Senator Gramm: "Why are we not moving quicker? I think it's a combination of two things: Number one, politics is principally a ... short-term transaction, and I think that the ability to put this off potentially for another five or six years is appealing to some people. I think, secondly--I'm a conservative and I often get criticized for being doctrinaire. But our biggest problem here is with liberals who are committed to the principle of a government-run, debt-based system. They like the politics of it, they like the social engineering of it, and even though it will fail and even though it will cause taxes to skyrocket and benefits to be slashed, they hate to give it up."