Mr. Koch had recently reflected publicly on the work of a professor who had found that the incidence of crime among young black men who were married and working was no higher than that among young white men. So how do we get young black men to marry and work? A splendid half-hour, even if Messrs. Buckley and Koch don't entirely arrive at an answer. EK: "The fact is that we have a system that says if you're married you can't get welfare and therefore it was a stupidity to set the welfare system up that way." WFB: "Now, you were part of the Democratic establishment...Why, in the dozens of years that these laws were accommodated, didn't you struggle against them?" EK: "Well, I must say that I have always been someone who has taken on my own party ... but to expect that I could change the welfare laws in this country is expecting a little too much even from Ed Koch."