Richard Herrnstein (who had died of cancer just before The Bell Curve was published) and Charles Murray had expected their book to stir up controversy; they hadn't been quite prepared for the sheer dishonesty of much of the criticism. That does not apply to today's guests: for starters, although Messrs. Holt and Botstein are both highly critical of the book, they have both clearly read it. One sample: LB: "I came away with a sense that you have no real optimism whatsoever that there is anything that society collectively can do to improve radically the performance of the people at the bottom of the bell-shaped curve." CM: "I won't argue with that." This discussion, like the book itself, has serious implications for our education system, urban society, and indeed the shape of American democracy.