A hard-fought but never bad-tempered debate between a veteran Cold Warrior and

a veteran pacifist. Mr. Coffin: "I would use moral leverage to insist that it's a great

mistake to fight evil as if it were something totally outside of yourself. I think self-

righteousness is the most immoral position nations can take." Mr. Pipes: "Why are you

insisting on blurring the moral differences between systems, between ways of life, between ideologies? There surely are profound differences. It doesn't mean that one is

all good and the other's all evil, but on balance there are enormous differences and I

don't see why one has to blur these differences to be moral."