Mr. Jordan, an old friend of President Carter's, had sharply criticized him for

failing to look after the needs of the black community. This discussion begins with specifics like the poverty program, but then moves to the purpose of the civil-rights movement: was it to foster a color-blind society, or a society in which blacks qua blacks would advance? WFB: "Racial discrimination apart, why should there be a black lobby?" VJ: "Apart from discrimination? Discrimination is so much apart of us and of our lives that it cannot be separated so as to make up, Bill, a different aspect of American life. We are so interwoven with our history of neglect and inequity that you cannot separate us out."