Mr. Weinberger had recently been raked by members of Congress for the proposed alterations in his department's budget. He had defended himself ably there; here, in more congenial company, he engages in a deeper discussion of education specifically and government expenditure generally. CW: "It applies to every group that has some stake in the budget or in federal programs.... Usually the litany goes something like this: 'We're doing this program. We've been doing it for many years. We agree with you that economies are necessary ... 'but take it out of defense.' And if you add up all of those reductions from the defense budget, we would be not a second-class power but a fifth-class power."