Mr. Hess, a longtime conservative and Republican, had split with both movements, declaring himself, as Mr. Buckley puts it, "first a libertarian thoroughly out of sympathy with the large role given to government in modern society, and finally an anarchist-the exact meaning of which we shall explore today." Although Messrs. Buckley and Hess had publicly used each other as bad examples, today's conversation is never bad-tempered. KH: "Hermits never socially organized. Ayn Rand never socially organized, perhaps. But anarchists ... left-wing or right-wing anarchists, so far as I know, would all agree that the point is people can socially organize volitionally; they do not need to live under established, institutionalized, self-perpetuating institutions of power." WFB: "Well, the trouble with your explanation of it, as I understand it, is that it sounds-" KH: "Sounds good, doesn't it?" WFB: "Yeah, it sounds very good. The trouble is-" KH: "Now that we've made a decision on that-" WFB: "-it simply doesn't take into account certain rather obtrusive human data."