Mr. Buckley begins by saying of his guest, "Where he stands, ideologically, in conventional terms, it is hard to say. Probably no one would wish either to claim him altogether, or to disclaim him altogether." And we soon see why, in this exhilarating discussion of education, poverty, and American society. PG: "Now if we mean by literacy, knowing the art of reading and writing, where the objects of the art are imagination and truth, then, of course, to be literate is, you know, importantly to be fulfilling yourself as a human being; but if we mean by literacy, being processed so that you can understand the code in order to buy products, or obey orders, or the rest, then it's a question whether most people wouldn't be freer if they weren't quite so caught in this code."